10 Questions with Catherine Wiebe
My friendship with Catherine Wiebe began when our mutual friend Amanda Farquharson pointed out in the comments of an Instagram post that we seemed to have a lot in common. We both loved food, and fabric, and books. We were both educators and writers and mothers to young daughters (though Catherine also has a son). Catherine and I started following each other, casually commenting on posts, then sharing memes we knew the other would get a kick out of. Eventually we began having full-on conversations in our DMs. It became clear we didn’t just have similar hobbies; we also shared an off-beat, sometimes-dorky sense of humour, and a warm, hopeful way of seeing the world.
But a year into the pandemic, Catherine went and did something I would never ever do, because I just don't have the guts. When the only bookstore in her small Ontario town closed, she responded by opening her own shop, Firefly and Fox Books. And that's when I realized there were also things Catherine and I don’t share. And that’s okay. I am so in awe of her courage, her energy, and her deep commitment to her community. She’s the real deal.
One day, I plan to travel to her town to shop in her beautiful store and maybe even stay in the little bunkie she and her husband Tim built on their property to house friends and family. Because even though we have never met IRL, Catherine Wiebe and I are genuine friends, and I am so pleased to introduce her to you.
Catherine Wiebe is the owner of Firefly and Fox Books, in Norfolk, ON. She is also an elementary school teacher, sewist, mother of three, and rainbow in human form.
Were you a bookish kid? What role did reading and writing play in your life as a child? Were there specific books that made a mark?
Catherine: Yes, definitely. I have always been very bookish, to the point where I got in trouble once, and instead of grounding me, my mom banned me from reading for the weekend.
My best friend from when I was little and I would go to the library every Tuesday. We would walk down together after school, and then we would stop at the cafeteria in Kmart and get a burger to share.
Kate: I used to walk to the tiny mall in my small town with my friends as a kid and we would go to the Kmart Cafeteria for potato wedges after we bought our Bonne Belle Lipsmackers from Shoppers’ Drugmart.
Catherine: So good!
Anyway, we were veracious! I would check out a dozen books, and then bring them back and check out a dozen more the next week. And just having that library so close by, and having friends that were also so bookish and into reading, were such big things.
Books that had an impact? I would say Walk Two Moons, by Sharon Capri, and Wrinkle in Time, by Madeline L’Engle. I bought that one at Bryan Prince Bookseller when I was 14. I actually did an interview with JP Antonacci from The Hamilton Spectator yesterday, and he asked if I had a bookstore in my mind that was my platonic ideal. I said Bryan Prince, just as it was when I first visited at the age of 14, with the floor to ceiling bookshelves and rolling ladders.
So, Walk Two Moons and Wrinkle in Time were both really pivotal. Also, Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIHM. I think for Wrinkle in Time and Walk Two Moons, it was about seeing parts of myself in these strong female characters who don’t necessarily fit in with their surroundings, both of them in small town situations like I was in. And for Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIHM, I never knew you could have so many feelings about a mouse, you know?!
2. So many bookish people dream of opening a bookstore, but you actually did it! What motivated you to step up, and how did you find the courage to take such a leap?
Catherine: It was a few things. Both my parents were business owners, as were my grandparents, so the business-owning side of it has never been romantic for me, because I have seen the reality. So, I never really aspired to open a bookstore! Working in a bookstore? 100%! But owning a business seems so tough. But then several things came together to change my mind. The Coles in our town closed early on in the pandemic, which was unfortunately the fate of many small town Coles outlets during that time. It was not just that it was the only bookstore in our town, it was literally the only bookstore in a 45 minute radius. For people who live in a city, I think that can be hard to understand, having to go so far to go to a bookstore, but that is the reality for a lot of people in smaller towns all over Ontario. So that was the inciting incident, if you will. We were talking to some friends about how devastated we were, and we just sort of said, “Oh, maybe we could open a bookstore.” Like, how hard could it be!
So, the idea sat for months in what I like to call my mental crockpot. Somedays I felt like, yes, we should do this for sure! And then other days, it was, like, oh no, it would just be too much. My husband Tim was going through a stressful time at work, and I wasn’t sure adding this stress was a good idea for our family. But then what really put me over the edge was connecting with someone who is now a good friend, but at the time was a friend-of-a-friend. Her name is Kristel Forcier. She manages the Redeemer University Bookstore, 21Five, in Ancaster, Ontario, but I didn’t know that until she posted on her Instagram about it. I messaged her and said, “I’m thinking of starting a bookstore, could we talk?” and she said “Absolutely! I’ll help you. I’ll walk you through it all.” So we met on Zoom every Tuesday night from January to June. She told me what to do, answered my questions, and talked things through with me. And then we had friends who bought a coffee shop downtown, right on the main drag. It had two store fronts, the coffee shop, and then one they were just using for storage and prep. It was a perfect spot, and they were willing to rent it to us for next to nothing.
I had some money from when I wrote my book that I had been socking away, not willing to spend it on anything for the longest time because I wanted to save it for something special. I also had some money from when my grandma died. My dad had given both me and my sister some money from her. So, I had this fortuitous connection with Kristel, this spot that seemed so idea, and enough money to start it without going into debt. We thought, let’s just give this a try. If it’s a bust, it’s a bust. I knew if we didn’t, I would always wonder what would have happened if we had tried.
Kate: Wait. Pause. I didn’t know that you wrote book! What?
Catherine: Yes! Send me your address and I will mail you a copy.
Kate: I would be over the moon to receive such a thing! In the meantime, tell me about it!
Catherine: It’s called Second Rising, and it was published by Blue Butterfly, which has since been bought by Dundurn Press. It’s a memoire-style novel about a grandmother and granddaughter, and the intersection of food and memory.
Kate: That is totally right up my street.
3. Once you made that decision, how did you go about actually making it happen? How did you fill the gaps in your knowledge and skills?
Catherine: So, as I have said, Kristel was a huge part of that. This is basically just a Kristel Forcier fan account. Truly it wouldn’t have happened without her. She was my source for learning about the nitty gritty of running a shop.
The son of the librarian at the school where I teach is a graphic designer and screen printer, and so I connected with him and he designed our logo and screen printed all of our shop shirts and tote bags and everything like that. He and another friend who does 3-D renderings also recommended Wix for doing the website, so that was big. That was a huge barrier for me. Like everyone else, I’ve learned so much in this past year and a half about how to do life online, but that doesn’t spark joy for me. A big anxiety piece for me was the thought that people would want to order books from me online, and what would happen if we were still in lockdown when we opened. I thought I needed a website where people could order online. But Tim and I talked it through, and he made the point that I am not Amazon, and that if people feel they need books delivered to their house overnight, then this is not the bookstore for them. And that’s okay. Realizing that, realizing that just having a functional online presence was enough, was really huge.
In terms of the space itself, this is also just a Tim Fox fan account. He patched up the walls, built all the bookshelves and our beautiful façade—all of it! My friend and I went to the shop for a couple of the days and painted, but he really did all the rest. He has built me these beautiful floor to ceiling bookshelves in every house we’ve ever lived in. Now he is like, “Was that just all gearing up for this bookstore?” I was, like, “No! Yes? Maybe!”
And then people were just so generous with their knowledge. Whenever I would reach out to people, to distributors and publishers, I would find that people were just so happy that there was a bookstore opening during this terrible time. It felt like everyone wanted me to succeed, which was a lovely feeling to have in the world. It really is true— it’s not just a nice thing to say— that a success for an independent bookstore is a success for all bookstores, and all publishers, and all communities.
Kate: I’m sure I’m simplifying and romanticizing things to some extent, but independent bookstores often seem to be a place where one can observe an alternative model for what business can potentially look like within a community, a model of economics that lifts people up and brings them together. That’s so amazing to watch. As I have tried to wheedle myself into the world of writing, I didn’t really anticipate the side benefit of being exposed to all of these amazing people and industries that exist alongside of, or in support of, that world—booktubers and bookstagramers, publishers, agents, and booksellers. They are all participating in business, but are also so often full of joy and empathy and social and environmental consciousness, and all of these other values that I would love to see us understand as business values more generally.
Catherine: And it’s so funny you say that, because I was talking to JP about this yesterday during that interview. I was giving what I would call, not my anti-capitalist rant, but my beyond-capitalism rant. And I do know it is a huge privilege to be starting this business from a position of economic strength, that my husband and I both have good jobs. I am so lucky to be able to say, “I’m going to start this business, and, no, I’m not just going to dump my life savings into it forever, but for now profit doesn’t have to be my first motive.” I am able to create a decision matrix that does not have profit at the top. It’s there, on the side, but my main focus is connecting people with good books and building relationships—those are my primary considerations.
4. In high school I got a job for the holiday season working at Booklore, the lovely bookstore in the town where I grew up. I was so excited to start, but then I got there and it was not at all what I had expected. It was mostly a lot of shelving. Weirdly, no one seemed very interested in assigning me the task of sitting and pontificating about books. I think lots of bookish people probably have a similar fantasy of working in, or even owning a bookshop that I am pretty sure doesn’t line up with the reality of that work. What is the very best and the very worst part of your experience so far?
Catherine: I would like to start by saying that, for me, it actually is the dream. All the things you think about when you picture owning a cute, small town bookstore? They’re all true! It’s the joy of recommending a book to a person who then comes back two weeks later for the second one in the series. Seeing an older sister buy books for her younger sister. New grandparents coming in and asking, “What books should I be giving to my grandchild?” Or the grandparent of an older child saying, “You know, she’s really struggling to find books she loves to read. What can I give her?” It’s just so beautiful.
And then also, you get to order all these books, and it’s so great! Like, I was so excited to order Anne of Green Gables, but then I realized there’s not just one cover. So the question is, “Do I want the beautiful floral motif? Or do I want this this illustration of Anne wandering through the flowering trees?” But guess what? I own a bookstore now, so I never have to choose! I stock three different Anne of Green Gables editions!
And then there are these Jane Austin covers with this beautiful watercolour, old English wallpaper vibe. Just . . I mean . . . honestly! There is one customer who is collecting the whole set, and he comes in every couple of weeks for the next one. It’s just so great. You order all these books and they come in, and it’s like Christmas every day. And it’s not like when you order books normally and have to think, “Oh, well, I can’t afford to get all the books by this author, I guess I’ll start with one. It’s a bookstore—somebody’s going to buy them!
And then we had our Harry Potter birthday party and people came dressed up. There was one little girl who loves Harry Potter. Her birthday is the same as Harry Potter’s, so her brothers brought her in and took a picture of her by the ‘Happy Birthday’ sign, and one of them bought her a book for her birthday.
So, truly, there are so many good parts. And then the bad parts? I mean, for sure there are some things I don’t love. But, for example, Tim does our personal taxes, and he was stressing about having to do the bookstore taxes, and then we realized that there would be enough money to hire an accountant! Once we were open, we found that we were selling way more books than we thought, which is not a problem, but it did mean that I was spending all these evenings ordering. I have a cousin who is a grad student who loves books and loves to work late at night, so I hired them to do my order inputting. So great! And, again, not being a profit-centred business, I can say to myself, “Yes, this cuts into my profits, but it also brings me more joy and gives me more time.”
Kate: Yes! That is just such a huge lesson of my 30’s, to outsource stuff that doesn’t bring you joy if you can. I know that being able to do that involves a level of privilege that shouldn’t be ignored, but to really come to see your time and your energy as valuable resources, and to acknowledge that there are things other people are better at, or more into, that you can outsource to, is both humbling and freeing.
Catherine: Yes! I am very committed to making sure that the work we take on doesn’t ruin our family life, and so if I can outsource things things that take time away from the things that are important to our family (right now it’s binging the Olympics, but other times it’s sewing or reading as a family) then that’s what I’m going to do. It’s such a joy to be able to do that.
5. How does your work as a teacher relate to this new role? Do you think about them as related forms of work, or totally separate animals?
Catherine: I feel like those roles are completely complementary and interconnected in every way. In a very practical sense, we offer a 20% discount for educators buying books for school, because as an educator I know how much of their own money teachers spend on their classrooms. And, again, not being a profit-centred business, I just decided that was important to me, and was something I was going to do. Also being in the classroom means that I know what books are sparking joy for kids, and also what is going to be sparking joy for adults in their lives—what books adults are going to be able to read to their kids without wanting to poke their own eyes out with a spoon. Because, as a teacher, I have read a lot of books that make me want to poke my own eyes out with a spoon.
So I feel like these two roles constantly feed into each other—becoming better at one also makes me better at the other. Now, ask me again in six months, once we are actually back to school and I am doing both jobs at the same time. But we decided I am going to give it a year, and then, if I need to hire somebody for the shop, or take a leave of absence, I can do that; that is one of the joys of teaching—how many professions can you take an unpaid year off from and know that your job will still be there at the end of it?
6. I hate when people ask successful, driven women how they do it all, because almost no one asks that question of ambitious men. But I am going to make an exception, because I so often look at your posts and think, “How does she do it all?!” You are a teacher, a mom of three small kiddos, and now a shop owner. Not only that, but you seem to be constantly creating—food, clothing, artwork. And the whole time you are doing and making all the things, you radiate this incredibly joyful, rainbow-like energy. How do you manage to do all of these things in a way that keeps you feeling filled-up rather than drained or resentful?
Catherine: Well, my friend Ari says it is because I have a time turner, so you can just put that down as my answer: ”Catherine has a time turner.”
Actually, I think there are a few pieces to this. I am generally a very energetic person, and I have found doing things I love gives me more energy. For example, teaching is very energizing for me. Also—and I feel like this is something I have heard you say as well—as a parent, doing it all is very much a joint effort. Tim is very physically supportive, in the sense of, say, literally building all the shelves for the shop with his bare hands, but then he is also emotionally supportive. It has been a bumpy road at times, because I still am the primary cruise director of this family, so to speak, and the times when I have not been able to fill that role are tough for me. Gender norms aside, that comes very naturally to me because I love to plan things, to arrange parties, all that stuff. But Tim has definitely stepped up in all those areas as well.
Something else that I always knew intuitively but am more aware of now is that (how do I say this without sounding woo-woo?) following my energy is really productive for me. I am not sure if you have read anything by Gretchen Rubin? In her book Better Than Before, she writes that if you want to change X about your life, the thing isn’t to say, Okay, I am going to do this and this. The thing is to know who you are, and then figure out how to fit that goal into who you are. If you’re a natural night owl, don’t say, “Alright! I’m getting up at 5am every day to write,” because you are dooming yourself to failure. It’s like we have all internalized this idea that morning people are more virtuous than night people, which is just not true. We have all of these value judgments around these kinds of things that really keep so many of us from being our best selves so much of the time.
The older I get, the more intentionally I think about who I am and build my work around that. For example, Tim and I are both very compulsive in different ways, and if I’m seized by the energy and desire to do something, I just do it. And then it goes so quickly, and feels so good, and it gets done. Rather than saying, “I planned to do that at this time, so I am going to wait, and go do something else instead,” it’s like, “I have been seized by this energy, and I’m just going to actualize whatever it is I am thinking about right now.” For creative projects, that might mean that I just jump in and sew a dress on the spot because I have a vision for it, even if that isn’t how I was planning on spending my night. I think that practice, following my energy, might make it seem like I have so much more time to do all of these things. It’s really just that I am apportioning my time, as much as I can given the fixed costs and demands of family life, where it most makes sense to me. For so long I had thought of this way of working as, maybe not a secret, but as sort of a shameful part of me. In undergrad, for example, I would stay up all night writing papers. My sister Hilary, on the other hand, worked in a very different, more conventional way. She was able to take three languages in one year because she was able to sit down and do the work in the very linear, consistent way. I used to wish I was more like her, that I was more consistent, but at the end of the day, we are both doing amazing things in different ways. And so, for me, I think a lot of it is just being very in tune with who I am and what I want to be doing, and actually listening to that.
Kate: And acting on it!
Catherine: Yes! Does that make sense?
Kate: So much sense! Knowing what you have to offer the world and how you work best as a precursor to making decisions about what you’re going to do and how you’re going to do it is something people don’t talk about enough.
The thing you said about being a high energy person is so interesting to me. I have come to the realization in the last few years that I am, in fact, a low energy person. For so long, I felt so much shame about that, and thought it was a problem I should be trying to fix, probably because I have such a deep fear of being seen as lazy. But once I was able to name that part of myself, to just own that as a characteristic like any other, it let me shift my focus to thinking carefully about how I was allotting the energy I did have. I love the idea of modeling for my children the value of leaning into what you have to offer, and spending your time and resources in ways that make sense to you, rather than trying to be all things to all people, which also necessarily models the value of asking for help and collaborating with others who have skills and knowledge and passions that you do not.
Catherine: Yes! There are people who love accounting! Amazing! We need those people. It is so great that we are all so different. I was planning a field trip last year, and one of the Educational Assistants said, “Oh, I’ll collect and organize the forms for you. I love doing that kind of thing, It brings me so much joy!” I almost choked.
7. Your shop is on the petite side, which means shelf space is limited. How do you think about curating your offerings?
Catherine: So, I have three primary foci, which are: local and Canadian authors, because I feel that supporting those authors is such an important part of the role of an independent bookstore; children’s books, because as a mom and teacher it is an area of joy and expertise, and because even people who don’t read buy kids’ books; and literary fiction, because it is such a passion of mine. We do also have general interest, non-fiction, some coffee table books, some cookbooks, and we can special order things for people as well. Within those three foci, almost every book on the shelf is either something I have read and loved, something someone I respect has read and loved, something a customer is passionate about, or was written by an author I love. For example, this is the summer of Kristen Hannah! Everyone is reading Kristen Hannah, so I ordered her entire backlist. Everyone is coming in and saying, “I have read The Great Alone, I’ve read Nightingale, I’ve read Firefly Lane, what can I read next?” And I get to say, “Fortunately for you, she is very prolific; here are six more options!”
So far, this way of curating has been fantastic. It’s so not scientific, but it’s really working. And I’m always thinking of new stuff, like, as we were talking about Gretchen Rubin, I was thinking, I don’t have any Gretchen Rubin! I need to order that in!
I had this moment of peace about this about two weeks before we opened, where I realized, You know what? The books I have are amazing. And if there’s a thing I don’t have that someone wants, that’s okay. I can just order it for them. A bookstore is a dynamic thing—it is not a static collection. New books are always being written, and old books are always being discovered or rediscovered by readers. That’s so beautiful, and so freeing. To decide that I don’t have to have an Amazon-level, one-click shopping website. I have so many books I love, and books that people I love love, and that is more than enough. People will come in and say, “I see so many books on the shelves that are my good friends, and I know that the ones beside them will become my friends.” You know what I mean?
Kate: I do! And another thing that has struck me following the store’s Instagram account is that you seem really committed to shining a light on Indigenous voices and voices of colour. You are giving literal and figurative space to those voices, which is so crucial.
Catherine: I think it is especially important to prioritize that in smaller, more culturally homogenous communities. First and foremost, I want kids of colour and Indigenous kids to know that they have a place here, a home here. And I also want my own white children and their white friends to have experiences and make connections that they might not otherwise make. I have been so gratified to see that there is so much passion for reading about perspectives outside of our own lived experience. For example, I would say books by Indigenous authors—I’m talking for kids, teens, adults, across the board—have been among our biggest sellers. People are realizing that they need to know and do better.
Kate: It’s incredible to see how much traction that literature has gained in such a short time—not enough, not nearly enough, but still. It is horrible and unfortunate, the circumstances that have had to happen to bring this shift about, but it really does go to show that when people become interested in cultural change it can happen, and it can happen quickly and in a big way.
Catherine: Yes! And I really believe that it is when everyday people become interested in seeking cultural change that it happens. There can’t be lasting systemic change that is only an elite, or a top-down, change. They’re needs to be a groundswell.
Kate: Yes! And I think that is so cool to see how central books have been to these new movements forward. I mean, I know my Instagram account is a curated space and is as susceptible to becoming an echo chamber as anyone else’s social media, but the degree to which Indigenous, Black, and Asian authors have been at the forefront of these surges forward has been so wonderful. People have this cynical idea that books don’t have weight in our culture anymore, but they obviously do, because that is where so many people seemed to have turn almost immediately when they realized they had learning to do.
8. If you could throw a dinner party with any group of people, who would you invite? What would be on the menu? The play list?
Catherine: Oh, wow. Okay. So, the music part is easy; I would hire my friend Chris, who’s an amazing singer-songwriter, and who did the music for our wedding, to come and play a mix of his own stuff and covers. What would we eat? Well, assuming we are talking non-Covid times!?
Kate: Of course! Why would we invite Covid to our fantasy party?
Catherine: So then we would start with a huge charcuterie board of fun snacky foods, lots of fresh fruits, meats and cheeses, bread. Then, for the main course, there would be fondue. I believe fondue brings people together. For dessert, we would have options: a shortcake with whatever fruit was in season and real whipped cream, and then a chocolatey option, like a brownie. Some people really like chocolate and some people don’t, so I feel like you want to have both.
I would invite Jesus, because I have lots of things I would like to ask him in person. I would invite Michelle Obama, because I would really like to be friends with her. And I’d invite my friends from undergrad Courtney and Jenna, because they they both live far away and I really miss them. One lives in Iowa and one’s in Sweden, and I haven’t seen them for over two years! Oh, and I’d invite my brother-in-law Chris, because he’s a really great dinner party guest! He’s just really fun to talk to.
9. What should we all be reading this summer?
Catherine: Oh, wow! So, 100%, everyone should get a copy of The Comfort Book by Matt Haig. He’s the Midnight Library Guy, a super successful author who is also someone who has had huge struggles with mental health, including suicidal ideation. The Comfort Book is basically his collection of comforting thoughts, some of which are his own, some of which are quotes from other authors, or longer-form pieces. He has gathered them all into this book that you can read cover to cover, or you can dip into a single page. I just feel like it is the book everyone needs on their nightstands during a global pandemic.
Kate: I feel like following him on Instagram, particularly during this time, has been really good for my mental health. It gives a balancing perspective to versions of self-help that are all about changing or improving yourself. He really just gives people permission to be who they are right now, even if they don’t love where they are right now.
Catherine: Yes! And to not always be the best version of yourself.
10. What food brought you the comfort and joy as a kid? As an adult?
Catherine: My Grandma Wiebe’s Zwieback, which are Mennonite buns. We called them Grammy Buns growing up. She made them for our wedding. That is the taste of childhood for me. Now? I would say still Grammy buns, or a fresh fig that Tim grew on one of his fig trees.
Kate: Perfection.
